War report: The PocketGamer.biz Mobile Gaming Mavens on Great Big War Game's Windows woe

Rubicon Development | 21:20 - 19 December 2012

Yeah, it's not been that hard at all to get to WP8 from RT. Which does make me wonder why they're not going to be fully cross compatible with one or the other. Surely this time it can't be just me! :)

Fresh news just in....
http://uk.ign.com/wikis/best-of-2012/Best_Mobile_Strategy_/_Simulation_Game

Keith Andrew | 17:59 - 19 December 2012

I think the idea is that it's very easy to port across to WP8. They've never been the same OS, though.

Chris Newman | 13:11 - 19 December 2012

I will echo the confusion over Windows 8 and Windows Phone 8. We were some way through development process before we realised that what we were doing would not run on phones. This was after we connected with Microsoft at an event aimed specifically at *mobile* developers with a presentation that encouraged us to "write once, deploy anywhere".

Mitch (Dave Mitchell) | 11:00 - 19 December 2012

I think from a consumer perspective, the whole Windows 8 Intel vs Windows RT ARM thing can be confusing. Intel vs ARM, what does that really mean to a consumer who isn't technically minded?

Unfortunately to combat that problem I think Microsoft's only solution is to present the platform universally, which they are obviously doing. So customers can still expect to get the same experience no matter whether they have a Windows ARM device or a Windows Intel device, although "legacy" apps won't run on the ARM devices.

This is a good strategy but unfortunately it means they need to encourage developers to support both ARM and Intel platforms.

Rubicon Development | 13:56 - 18 December 2012

Well hindsight is always 20:20. As I said, we had to make decisions here before most of this info was known, but that's our problem.

Should've done more research? Apparently, but when enquiring about something else and MS offer you a chance to be the first app on their new store, tell me some other tiny developer who wouldn't just shout YES right there on the phone.

There is still an issue here that a custom written game for surface doesn't even qualify for a spotlight on the surface due to infrastructure, whether it's our game or anyone elses - and I know of several, it ain't just us. But I'm willing to concede that there is only one person on the internet who finds that kinda odd, and maybe it's time to shut up about it and just watch how things develop.

Keith Andrew | 13:30 - 18 December 2012

@Rubicon

You're losing me now. Windows RT was only ever for ARM devices. If you thought that it was going to launch on Intel tablets, then...well, I don't know where you got that from. Microsoft was never anything but open about what forms of hardware would run what OS.

It seems to me as if you entered into this new Windows marketplace without proper researching how it works - although, that really would have taken 5 minutes. RT was only ever for ARM devices, and it was always - always - known that the Surface Pro units, launching in January, would run Windows 8. Not RT.

If this took you by surprise - as your comments suggest it seems to - then you only have yourselves to blame.

Secondly, RT is not stillborn. Indeed, as well as Microsoft's cheaper Surface units, RT is also launching on cheaper tablets from other OEMs.

The mistake you're making is to think of Windows 8 and RT as different platforms. They're not. You keep insisting Microsoft won't promote RT games on its Store for RT devices, but that's not true. They won't promote RT *only* apps. They want developers to launch RT and Windows 8 versions of their apps so, by and large, the two marketplaces are identical.

It's fair enough if that strategy pisses you off - I'm sure you won't be the only one - but misrepresenting the issue really doesn't do your case any favours.

Rubicon Development | 04:57 - 18 December 2012

And please don't forget here that we had to make decisions when all of this was still Betas and Prototypes. We naturally thought that RT would be a special, stripped down version of Windows 8 designed to run on tablets. Which included the Intel machines we heard were coming, but still nicely side-stepped any potential conflicts with our PC publisher.

I believed all this right up until a few days ago when a Windows 8 tablet was announced. So my questions now is, why does RT exist at all if it's not the "microsoft tablet o/s" with its own tablet app shop.

We also thought, wrongly, that this would be the OS going into WP8 so that tablet and phone apps would be cross compatible. I'm still not sure why this isn't true and I hope nobody is going to one star our stuff because they expect it to run on both their phone and tablet without paying again, like iOS and Android customers do.

Rubicon Development | 23:15 - 17 December 2012

@Keith

>> "There'd be some Windows 8 games but they won't run." - That's simply not true, and does make me question whether you've actually played with the device your game runs on."

I meant in theory. They're hidden so you end up with nothing being showcased at all.

>> "But this isn't a case of caring whether there's a "PC version as well". Windows 8 and Windows RT are both tablet operating systems, and however different the mechanics of them are from a developer perspective, for consumers, they are essentially one and the same platform."

But they're not though are they. This isn't just semantics, they are completely different devices entirely, with different hardware and different software. You said so yourself taking me to task above. One will not run the others games. Just how different do these things have to be before the emperor can put his clothes back on?!

If customers are being led to believe anything different, then there's gonna be a shedload of angry people about real soon.

Lets just take a step back here. Microsoft will not put a showcase for RT games onto their own RT tablet, unlike what they've done with their other platforms (Windows 8, 360.) and unlike what every other manufacturer does with their tablets (Google, Apple, RIM, Amazon, even the Blackberry Pi). What does that really tell you.

They then announce a year early that the next surface will in fact run full blown windows 8 and not RT. Meaning the few RT apps you can currently get are still born.

Is it just me that thinks this has all gone tits up here? And who's left holding the bag? The early adopter developers who were (rightly imo) expecting so much more, and the poor customers who bought some hardware that's deprecated. Nice.

Keith Andrew | 22:41 - 17 December 2012

@Rubicon - Finally, in regards to your latter posts: I can't speak for Microsoft, but this isn't a case of showcasing 'PC apps' on RT.

Windows 8 is a tablet OS as much as it is a PC one - indeed, Microsoft's own Windows 8 powered Surfaces launch in a matter of weeks. This is a case, whether right or wrong, of Microsoft looking at what's gone wrong with Android and trying to sidestep by that by presenting a unified marketplace.

Speaking as someone with a healthy interest in marketing, that's also what I would have advised Microsoft to do. As such, it appears Microsoft isn't too keen too push RT only apps.

But this isn't a case of caring whether there's a "PC version as well". Windows 8 and Windows RT are both tablet operating systems, and however different the mechanics of them are from a developer perspective, for consumers, they are essentially one and the same platform.

Keith Andrew | 22:36 - 17 December 2012

@Rubicon - What you've put in your opening reply about the Store on Surface isn't true.

If you buy a Surface, *no* Windows 8-only games show up in the Store. If you start the Store up, there are plenty of games there - hundreds, in fact.

"There'd be some Windows 8 games but they won't run." - That's simply not true, and does make me question whether you've actually played with the device your game runs on. No games that won't run on RT are in the Store. They're filtered out, and the marketplace only shows apps and games that are designed for, and run on, RT.

Rubicon Development | 20:20 - 17 December 2012

@Val, the answer is "sort of" which is why I'm struggling to explain myself tbh.

You can only see RT stuff if you go to the store from an RT machine. But this is shared with the "bigger" store, which means in turn that RT only apps *do not* qualify for a spotlight, ever, if there's no PC version to go with it.

In the wider scheme of things this is probably correct. But if I just bought a surface tablet, then I want surface apps shown to me, and I couldn't care less about whether it has a PC version as well.

I lost a lot of credibility using my own app to highlight this, but I think the point stands and is worth some discussion. I titled my original piece "Born to fail" and this is why.

Contrary to what one of the "mavens" says above, being featured is the difference between success and fail for most small studios, moreso than ever. Given the bewildering array of games on iOS and Google Play, most customers just browse through that weeks new and noteworthy and pick from there.

If those small studios know that it's not even possible to get a feature, they're probably just going to stick with iOS and Android. I've spoken with many small devs that have already reached that conclusion, especially whilst the size of the customer base is still small.

Time will tell who called this one.

(For those apps you mention, I don't know tbh. I was told the above straight from MS, so I presume there are also PC versions for Windows 8 that qualifies them.)

Val Ilchenko | 19:49 - 17 December 2012

@Rubicon, maybe I'm not fully understanding your statement, but isn't the Windows Store on any RT Tablet the RT Store?! Further, you mentioned spotlights and how there are 5 spotlight slots but then later say there is no RT store to spotlight. I'm just not following your logic and it's perhaps something as simple as internal language that I may not understand. Windows 8 has a Windows Store with Windows 8 apps, Windows RT has a Windows Store with RT apps, therefore isn't each the respective store with their respective spotlights? Also, can you elaborate on how spotlights are illegal in the RT app store, how are other apps "featured" or spotlighted if it is illegal to do so? When the ESPN app came out or hydro thunder or even that dumb stick man app, and they are featured, how is this different than being a spotlight app?

Rubicon Development | 19:31 - 17 December 2012

Can't edit, wanted to add this:
http://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2012-12-17-raspberry-pi-store-goes-live

Rubicon Development | 17:51 - 17 December 2012

@Keith, I'm with you on the "Unified market" idea. The thing is that this is for unifying Windows 8 - the PC O/S as it stands now and any intel tablets, including Microsoft's own new one next year.

But RT is /not/ Windows 8. Windows 8 is as relevant to RT as OSX or Linux is. If you just bought an RT tablet, would you not want new custom RT apps showcasing on the store? Why would you care about Windows 8 at all?

And to address the "Self entitlement" issue, this is getting tiring tbh. It's not self-entitlemnent, it's simple maths. There were about 15 apps ready on launch day. There are 5 spotlight spots available at one time, for a week. Therefore we expected to get one of those slots within 3 weeks. If anyone can poke a hole in that and say "bad call" then I'd love to hear the reasoning.

It's got nothing to do with "our game is better than theirs" and everything to do with "this early, there's room for everybody"

The prospect of getting a spotlight was the only reason we jumped on this platform so early and why I was so angry about it being ruled out. Not because the game wasn't good enough, not because it didn't pass certification, not for any specific reason down to us. The reason we get no spotlight is because there is not even an RT store to spotlight it in. Am I really the only person that thinks that's a bit odd?

Rubicon Development | 17:04 - 17 December 2012

Why can not a single apparently intelligent person get this. Let me try it just one more time.

My complaint is NOT that we didn't get a spotlight, it's the fact that spotlights are basically illegal for RT tablets. Which is going to sink RT tablets. I would expect pundits to have noticed this by now.

You buy an iPad, take it home, open box, charge it up.
You then hop over to the app store to see what's available.
Tons of stuff with showcased noteworthy apps. W00t

You buy a Nexus 7, take it home, open box, charge it up.
You then hop over to the app store to see what's available.
Tons of stuff with showcased noteworthy apps. W00t

You buy a surface, take it home, open box, charge it up.
You then hop over to the app store to see what's available.
Nope, nothing to see here. There'd be some Windows 8 games but they won't run. So instead of showcasing Windows RT apps, we'll just leave you hanging. Shoulda bought an iPad.